3 generations of Maas.
	Carl Maas, Sr. awarding an RS radio to a lucky trade show attendee.
	A Wheaties "Heinkel" prior to construction. Because copper was being used for the war non-copper pennies were subsituted for nose weight. This shifted the CG aft.
	A finished Wheaties FW-190.
	The first issue of RCM – 35 pages and almost zero ads.
	The first ad for MonoKote. At first, it had pressure sensitive adhesive backing rather than iron-on.
	Early "tie board" which eliminated hours of soldering when building a radio (yep, you had to build your own rado).
	Ad for legendary Berkeley model kits - note pricing.
	A big revolution in model building: "crutch" construction.
	Early Kraft multi-channel radios.
	Early built-up warplane kits.
	Ad from 1960s for Orbit radios.
	Early K&B engine - often modified for RC flight
	Carl Maas Sr.'s midget pylon racer as featured in RCM, 1969.
	Carl Maas, Jr. and Sr. built this remarkable B-29 and X-1 PSS combo. Yes, there was an actual X-1 drop and the two planes flew formation (video).
	Flying Hobie Hawks in Southern California.
	Hobie Hawk advertising and Hobie Alter on the cover of MAN, 1974. read more about Hobie here and in this 1975 Sports Illustrated article
	Carl Jr.'s good friend Mike Reed holds his LS-1.
	The Maas men pre-flight a P-80.
	Carl Maas, Jr. and Brian Laird showing off their James Bond-inspired P-51.
	Carl, Jr. with his Hellcat.
	Carl, Jr. with his astonishing Voodoo. You have to see this plane in person to understand Carl's skill level: note the reflection on the wing – that ain't MonoKote, that's paint!
	Carl, Jr. showing off his youthful figure.
	More Maas! Carl, Jr. with Sara and Mitchell.
	above photos courtesy Carl Mass, Sr. (except Hobie Hawk ad and MAN cover courtesy of www.hobiehawk.com)

JW: You two are a rare item - a father and son RC slope team that has survived the son's advance to adulthood. Most kids give it up after awhile. I'd like you to talk about the whole adventure of building and flying together, but first I want to hear how each of you remember your very first experiences of things that fly. Was it something you saw or heard or did someone take you up in a plane?

Sr: First let me inquire about your objective in even wanting to understand this very special area and bond that my son and I have. Would you share that with me? 

JW: Slopers are a small but highly-devoted group of hobbyists, as you well know, and they are hungry to understand more about all aspects of the sport. My hope, by interviewing you and Carl Jr., is that we can explore two important things:

1) the history of RC flight in as many dimensions as possible. By knowing what has come before them, a lot of the younger guys will gain an appreciation for what they now have. We are all standing on the shoulders of giants, but never more so than at this point, a mere 100 years since the Wright Brothers. Radio control, composite construction, CNC milling, computer modeling - soon there will be cheap 3D prototype construction! How did we get here and what were the contributions of those who've come before us? Knowing this will help people appreciate what they have AND help them understand the best way to move forward.

2) how RC can benefit individuals and enhance relationships. I'm sure every moment hasn't been a bed of roses for you and your son, but I'd like people, especially men, to understand how sharing a hobby can bond a family. So often now, I see families that only share a house and nothing more - the kids know nothing about what the parents do and the parents know even less about the kids! They are all sitting in separate rooms staring at separate screens. Sharing an RC project can teach a kid so much about problem-solving, sharing tasks, persistence, creativity, engineering, craftsmanship, etc. More importantly, it gives the kid a chance to work side-by-side with a role model, someone who can not only teach them the technical aspects of modeling and flying, but teach them how to be a person - how to deal with adversity and success, how to balance competitiveness and sportsmanship and so on. And since you and Carl Jr. are still at it, we can show folks that mutual interest in the sport can live on and continue to be a source of creativity and shared activity.

Sr: Would like to say that your response is most appreciated because some people my age tend to still feel and think young but realize that what we had and our experiences are going away much like the vintage aircraft.

If I had a wish it would be to take my son and grandkids back for a short while to when I grew up. My generation was not swept up by X-box, TV and the computer (we did pretty well though, moon landing, computers, shuttle, tv, jet aircraft etc). Somehow we survived drinking water from a hose, didn't wear a helmet for bike riding, had to figure things out ourselves in many cases which in turn carried over into our hobbies and our lives. Plus your request came at a time when a very close modeler and friend who worked with me at North American appeared to be close to saying goodbye. This in turn triggered a lot of thoughts about my life and today's world. This will probably be as "wordy" as I will get but focusing in on the areas you touched on is almost as if I get a chance to maybe pass some things along which makes one feel fortunate to have someone like you be interested enough to ask about them so maybe we don't lose all of it. This is the greatest "hobby" of them all! It encompasses so many aspects unlike other hobbies. The biggest value however, is that of the lasting and bonding of the people involved in it. This is a unique group of men and the bond extends deep into their life. The computer has enabled us to draw this bond even tighter. I challenge any other group to equal the response one of us gets when assistance of any nature is solicited. You have correctly identified this area and as the father of Carl, I am extremely proud of how he interfaces with his peers and fellow modelers and meets the criteria you defined. The "hobby" has given this to him.

Moving on to your initial question, you would have to understand when I grew up. The time was 1934 when I first saw light. Much like RJ Mitchell, I was fascinated by watching a bird called a "Martin" fly. The glide with wings set is amazing! We had a big bird house in our flower garden that my dad and I built (I probably got to hold the nails) for him. The first plane I saw was probably a small two place high wing machine that flew over our house in Northern Minnesota. The next significant aircraft was a Ford Tri Motor that was giving rides at the local fair. The major turning point came when I was seven years old and remember hearing FDR's speech about Pearl Harbor. That time triggered my interest in aircraft to the point where I drew them in school, carved them from pine blocks and bought small models at the local five and ten cent store. You had to exist in this time frame to understand the exposure we had to the rapidly changing aeronautical world due to the war. I still have magazines including some model mags from the thirties and forties. So lots of building models, paper planes and trying to figure out how to get a ride in something that flew. War ends in '45 but now I was twelve and the interest was growing.

Jr: Well, you can imagine that as the son of my dad (Carl Maas Sr.), there were model planes around when I was growing up, so I did not have to look very far for some interesting models to view. As far back as I can remember, my dad was building and flying freeflight and later R/C gas powered aircraft. I remember going out in about 1965 or so, to a field, watching my dad fly his free flight Nomad, a powered glider that had an escapement type system on it. It was fun just to watch something he had built fly in the air! I would often tag along to his flying adventures, and loved just to go and watch.

One of the places that I will always remember, was being taken to the "Planes of Fame" air museum located in Buena Park, Ca. It was probably about 1970 or so, and it was "cool"! There were all kinds of full size scale planes (WWI and WWII mostly) in neat dioramas, that really showed off the way it was during that period. Another great place to go was the Chino airport, where many older warbirds were restored an flown. You could often see Bearcats, Mustangs and even a P-38's on occasion. It was during this period, that I realized how much I loved warbirds and planes.

JW: What were your first models planes like? How were they built?

Jr: One of my first planes that I can remember, was a large Nomad, using a power pod strapped on top in order to get it to a good height. The engine would quit, and then it was sailplane time. I would control it using a Reeds system. This was one button for left and two for right! I believe the plane was all balsa constuction, balsa formers, open construction, ribs, etc. The plane was covered in a new plastic material called Monokote. (Carl Sr. can probably remember better than I at this point). We were members of a club called the R/C Bees, and I actually won "Plane of the Month" in 1969! My dad used to use silk and dope quite a bit to finish his planes. (I remember the smell!) Later on came fully sheeted foam core wings and all balsa construction, finished with resin and Hobbypoxy painted planes.
 
Sr: Everything built in the 30's prior to the War came from either plans or a kit that contain printed on wood and strip stock. The wood was sometimes balsa and sometimes hardwood like spruce. You cut the parts out by transferring the outlines from the plans or cutting the pieces out from the printed stock. There were no X-acto knives so most of us used razor blades. No Dremel saws or other power equipment so a coping saw was a favorite weapon. The glue was either DuCo or Carters household cement or in some cases, you used carpenters glue that was made from glue beads and melted over heat on a stove. If you built a solid model, you carved it and sanded it to death using the section templates provided. Paint was about anything you could find for a solid model, usually enamel. If you built it up, the model was covered with Jap tissue until the war came along. At that point we used tissue paper and glued it on the structure. Once in place, water still worked well to shrink it. If you had a clear lacquer available, you brushed on a coat or two. After the War, Jap tissue became available again. It was far superior to regular tissue and still is the tissue of choice with the groups building that kind of model today.   

I probably should tell you that I was involved with the hobby in a business capacity exactly at the time it primarily start to move (making and selling rc radios). The information I can relay along will, in some cases, stagger you.  Many of the pioneers in our hobby and the companies that they started I knew personally and they were good friends. With the exeption of Dewey DuBro, only a couple such as Sal Tabi are still alive. Thinking about all of this is almost overwhelming as the memories are many!  So before you ask specifics, I can give you somewhat of a baseline that you may wish to explore on a deeper basis. So having said that, let me drop a few bits of information.  I skipped over the war but should pass along some things like: "Wheaties" had WWII planes that you could send away for with a nickel and a box top. I still have a set which included a P-40, Zero, Heinkel, FW190, Yak, Nakamima, Hellcat, Spitfire, Fairy Fulmer etc) They took a penny for weight in the nose and flew like hell!  Guess how we learned to trim out an aircraft. My dad took me to an airport so I could see a "big" airplane. It was a DC3. During the war, it was not unusual to see a squadron of fighters pass overhead at 150ft. I will never forget the sound. After the war, you could again get balsa wood. I built models in the basement and used all the household glue I could get my hands on (no, we never thought about sniffing it). When I ran out of glue, I "borrowed" some of the flooring adhesive from my dads stuff because my mom thought I was always using her glue up. My dad traveled and because the local hobby shop guy told me I was too young to understand airplanes,(another story) Dad would stop in at a hobby distributor that was a wholesaler and bring home dope, wood, engines and other things. I guess he figured it would keep me busy as I was a really curious kid. So we built free flights and in the winter, walked 2miles out to the local airport. Flew them on skis and tossed them out of the control tower (the guy who ran the airport was a modeler). Modeling died out when I went to college but I moved to California at 21 and started building free flights again and even flew them at night up at Sepulvada Basin. Some of the really greats were there!  Carl Jr. wasn't in the picture yet (3yrs away) but I started to build an rc job. Single tube Orbit with one of Howard Bonner's rubber powered escapements  So now I'll stop by saying, "there were no engines with throttles, no connectors or switches, no wheel keepers, no hinges, no ca glue or epoxy, no nylon parts of any sorts, no iron on coverings, no plastic tanks, no silicone tubing – and receivers needed to be wired! I'm sure you now have the picure but we had to be inventive so we made these items in some pretty creative ways.  I would imagine you are almost sorry now that you opened this pandoras box. The best was yet to come.

JW: So it seems to me that plane building progressed slowly from the 30's through the 70's. Can you each talk about the key developments in RC flying in those years? Electronics, materials, tools, methods, etc.

Sr: Actually Reed, things moved out rather quickly after the war. Silk was back instead of being used for parachutes as well as silk span and as I mentioned balsa wood. Carl recalled the Nomad and thought it was a reed system but it was first built as a rubber powered escapement aircraft. The transmitter was the Orbit single channel with a 1 Au14 tube in the receiver. A larger version was later built with a 2 servos and was much like a two channel unit today. While a number of companies such as Citizenship, Berkley models, Ecktronics, F&M, World Engines produced radios, it was Orbit Electronics that lead the way. Orbit had the reputation of being a radio you could count on to work. Bear in mind that all radio frequencies were on the 26.995 up through the 27meg range which was the citizens band for ham operators. Interference was always a concern! The first significant change came in the late 50's with the incorporation of utilizing "reed banks" in the receiver. These were activated via a toggle switch on the transmitter. Each "channel" had a switch. You toggled or "pulsed" these for the control desired. Nothing was proportional. They came in two, four, six, eight and finally 10 channels. The planes no longer had escapements but actuators built primarily by Howard Bonner. These were called either Powermites or Duramites. There size was obviously quite large and they drove in a linear mode. Orbit became well known for its ability to be able to execute "triple" simultaneous commands.

RC planes were essentially free flights with a radio but designs started to evolve such as the famous "Smog Hog" and "Astro Hog". California was the hot bed of activity and shortly the next major design hit with the great debate over analog systems vs digital. One of the first digital radios was the Space Control and it was the actual size of a brick. The two stick configuration had moved into the forefront and the natural carry over became, Mode 1 vs Mode 2. For those who don't know the difference, Mode 1 was a carry over from the reed days where the toggle switch for the elevators was on the left side of the box and the throttle switch was on the upper right side. This provided a natural transition for the "old guys" while newer personnel found the Mode 2 much like a stick in real plane IE: elevator and ailerons on the same stick. Mode 1 flyer's will still tell you that when you're flying, you don't get any interaction between the two as opposed to Mode 2. On top of all this, we had a "single stick" configuration that incorporated everything into one stick with the throttle located on the side of the transmitter. Ultimately, the two stick configuration won out and you can now tailor fit your sticks as you desire. No servo reversing switches or exponential as well as all of the other mixing and dual rate functions were present. The computers have done wonders with this area. Not having these caused us to do precise layouts and plan carefully for control throws.

In 1969, Orbit engineering came up with the "buddy box". Carl was 9 yrs old and I used him along with Bob Dunham (National Champion and founder of Orbit) in magazine ads to demo this new approach to teaching someone to fly. It was a significant hit and lives with us today. Unfortunately, Orbit was owned and run by modelers and other companies were forming that had a business base and plan, thus the die was cast. Our approach was costly as witnessed by the machined aluminum gimbals that were polished instead of plastic. The ideas that were formed in Orbit were years ahead of the industry. As examples,the RC car potential was recognized and a car radio designed. A ready to fly aircraft called the Shell Fly was fabricated in Japan along with an injected molded four channel radio under the Micro Avionics label. I first flew this in June of 1969 with excellent performance. The cost of this entire unit landed in the states was $69, We had worldwide distributors in place as the hobby was growing at a phenomenal pace.

In concert with the radio technology surge, Ed Kasmurski in Chicago owned a machine shop that also included injection molding. He was the first to fab nylon hardware. He did this because he had been caught up in this hobby and had designed two primary aircraft. One was a trainer called the Taurus and the other a full blown low wing pattern ship called the Orion. He made nylon nose gear bearings, hinges, clevis', and other hardware that ultimately found its way to another Chicago based operation called TopFlite. TopFlite was owned by Sid Axelrod and Mike Schleninger. A very young Dave Platt worked there and they made some of the better kits. Sid introduced monocote to the hobby. In its initial stage it had a sticky back and would shrink reasonably well. However, it failed to retain tautness so Sids solution was to cover with either silk or dope and then apply the Monocote. I remember asking him "why is Monocote better over silk than paint"? He knew there was no answer for this and continued to work the problem. Super Monocote thus was born and needs no explanation about its contribution to the hobby.

Concurrently with this development, die cutting of parts was in full swing and if done poorly soon earned the name of "die crunch". Another approach was also taken and that was to fab jigs and sand the parts to shape. This was accomplished to a higher level by Jensen with his version of Phil Kraft's national winner called Kwik Fly. The kit sold for $29 and was very complete even to diagonal braces being shaped. The price tag was the first to go over $20 for a kitted plane but soon Carl Goldberg and others moved into this area of the market.

Bob Hunter of Satellite fame latched onto a product called "Eastman 910". He sold this under the trade name of "HotStuff". You now know this as CA. It was originally developed for medical use but being creative we found a way to use it. Due to the increase of modelers now BUILDING and not assembling, the industry was gaining exposure to new materials that many of the people coming into the hobby had insight into. Bev Smith of Pettit paint came out with a complete line of epoxy paints and composite materials were on the rise along with adhesives.

Engines also were being developed that met the needs of the hobby. When we first started after the war, no engines had a throttle. To overcome this, we took bar stock aluminum and made both exhaust and "clapper valve" throttles. This was done by filing the aluminum to shape. It was trial and error as one mistake and you started over. OS finally came with a production throttle on a .15 cu engine that worked well. Every engine manufacturer followed in rapid order. The biggest engine out was a McCoy 60 or a Dooling 60. The majority of RC engines had jumped from .35 cu in. up to .40 cu in. and flew aircraft up in the 6-7 lb region. A .15 typically flew a 3.5 lb plane. Bigger engines and better carburetors came out almost on a monthly basis. Duke Fox came with a Fox .59 that was a power house.

The tools were also now up to speed with Xacto blades, jig saws and a multitude of handy dandy items being made available. Wheels, wheel collars, hinges, push rods and all of our materials we have now were getting refined and were pretty much in place by 1975. Foreign products were also coming into play including SuperTiger, Enya, Webra, OS, Graupner and others. Each seem to bring a new little twist to existing items. The next big step was the ARF plane.

Jr: Well, I think my father just about covered that question! Actually having proportional radios was a huge progression, and also the start of the ARF kits. These became very popular, and I remember my dad hating them, for being "just another one in a box"! He is truly the ultimate craftsman, as you will see later.

The radios had no servo reversing, exponential or even dual rate controls! The servos were marked with red dots for reversed, and let me tell you, hooking everything up going the right direction and with the right amount of throws was a challenge. Before instant glues, I remember thinking that everything took forever to build.... or at least it seemed that way to a kid!

JW: Now I love my dad, but I can't imagine having a father with such passion for his hobby. Can you describe a typical night out in the garage with Sr when you were a kid? How did it change over the years?

Jr: Well, as a young boy, my dad was always building something in our garage. My dad had building and flying buddies, just as we do now, and they too were competitive. During the 60's and 70's, he was racing formula I, Quarter Midgets, flying pattern planes in competitions, and flying in the local R/C Bees club events. He was designing his own planes, usually with his friends, so it was exciting to be around. I would come home from school, and finish my homework, just so I could get out there and work on my planes or my dad's. He would try and teach me something, and usually my impatience got in the way. I remember a few times, I would build a tail piece, or have sanded an elevator on my Bearcat, thinking that I had finally got it right, only to find out that it was not up to his standards. He would make me redo it, and at the time, seemed unfair, but let me tell you, this is how quality gets engineered into a plane, through perseverance and hard work. Now I just sit back and laugh thinking about it! I love being anal about trying to make it as good as I can, as it is kind of my building personality. I know that my good friends are always reminding me of that! (mostly Tim Neja)

Anyway, it was often late night building crunches, getting ready for events, and I remember staying up as late as my dad would let me. In the early days, I mostly just watched my dad and his friends build, and I would sit and ask questions, or piddle around with small balsa throw around gliders. As I got older (10+), I was starting to build my own. It was really cool to have my dad and his friends over, discussing problems, and designs. I definitely learned a lot during this time. In my early teens, I could fly pretty well, and so we worked alot more together, instead of me always bugging him. But I usually cleaned his workshop, so hey - it wasn't all that bad!

Sr: Did we have fun or what? I must share a truly funny bit of humor. So many crazy things happen at the flying field it would take a month to begin to cover them. My favorite was when Carl was with me at the flying field and a good friend of mine was flying his plane. Carl approached him and said "Mr. Stevens?" and Roy replied "Not now Carl, I'm busy flying." Carl again came back with "But Mr. Stevens". Roy again told him "Not now!" Carl came back and I reminded him about not bothering people flying which he really never did. He then told me that Roy's engine (a new expensive black head Webra) had fallen out of the plane. About this time Roy is yelling "Dead stick" and the plane is sort of looking like a falling leaf. When it got down, Roy was in disbelief and said "My God, my engine is gone." I really felt good saying "That's what Carl was trying to tell you." Roy immediately asked where it had come out and Carl just ignored the question. That engine is probably under some ones house in Yorba Linda.

JW: So Sr., reading between the lines, I see that you were somehow involved with Orbit. But I don't see exactly how? Did you help found the company?

Sr: Man-oh-man Reed, you have to be a glutton for punishment. I thought for sure my last bit would have done you in! In trying not to be too detailed, I just focused on the Company and not the people. I first got involved with Orbit on a part time basis. I had been teaching and coaching and had been going back to school working on administrative areas as well as engineering. Flying fatalities were reasonably high due to both pilot error and equipment malfunction. A radio that was in for repair needed to be turned around rapidly and this was not happening with any of the manufactuers. One of the main things Orbit did was to fly the repair to assure it was up to standards. I approached them about doing this for them and getting the repair segment more under control. This was readily accepted and so I became the "test" pilot. You have no idea how much fun you can have when you have when someone has complained about an intermittent problem and you finally find it with a plane inverted and all the channels shift by one function (elevator on throttle, ailerons on elevator etc) and you must get it down intact or create more problems. About six months went by and Orbit was acquired by Datatron Inc. This was a high tech communications company and I had changed job becoming their Director of Personnel. They shortly discovered that I had a pretty good understanding of the Orbit and transferred me over as Director of Marketing. Orbit also owned MicroAvionics which was originally set up to be a low cost Orbit. The two main players at Micro were Don Mathes and Bob Novak. MicroAvionics had basically gone it's own way and needed to be pulled in to Orbit to eliminate double overhead and all the rest of the related costs. I redesigned the transmitter case along with a new logo and set about to market Orbit and Micro. Bill Northrop worked for me in sales as well as Hal DeBolt back in Buffalo. I set Helmut Bernhardt up in Germany as a distributor and introduced him to John Brodbeck Sr who was producing K&B engines. Bernhardt proceeded to produce parts for K&B and also manufacturered HB engines. Part of the marketing strategy was to sponsor some very talented flyer such as Joe Bridi of Kaos fame, Dave Platt with MicroAvionics, Terry Prather and people such as Jim Kirkland and others. So my role was multifaceted, advising engineering about technical changes that we should pursue such as the buddy box, and marketing our product. Obviously, things like smaller servos and receivers with greater capability became our focus.

JW: So Orbit didn't have as big or as clear a business plan as some of the other guys? You said it was run by modelers - as opposed to suits?

Sr: Orbit was a unique group of people! As mentioned, for them the early days were working on or building a few radios and then going flying. They ran it much like the old guy in the hobby shop that had stuff everywhere and was building planes in the shop. Example would be T&A Hobbies in Burbank where Addie still builds in the shop vs Tower Hobbies. Orbit didn't have things like a business plan based upon the market, related strategy on market share capture or other pertinent areas. Additonally, each area of the country was fiercely local to a specific brand of radio. Think Ford vs Chevy. Logitrol was in Texas, World engines was Ohio, FM in New Mexico, Citizenship in Indiana, MinX in Michigan and so on. Orbit had the market because of quality but they viewed the industry as one big family with plenty of room for all. So when a Phil Kraft came over to the plant and said, "how do you get the reedbanks to go simultaneaous?" They showed him how to do it. Another classic case was in the machine shop where Dick Railing who was probably the most creative machinist in the industry was developing mini servos. These would be shown to other people and sold as OEM items to other manufactuers instead of becoming a proprietary item. By the time Datatron got it, the road up the hill to recovery was steep and some of the talent such as Jerry Nelson had left.

JW: So Phil Kraft just took that info and ran with it?

Sr: Phil Kraft was a good business man. He recognized the vast potential, hired the right people including Dick Railing's right arm (Chuck Hayes), used the "ole boy network" and created a solid company that went to the front of the line and than sold it and got out. Howard Bonner started by making escapements and followed this up by making actuators. Once he had this niche in the market, he hired Bob Elliot and Jerry Krause (engineers) and developed the Bonner radio. He later sold this to Gordon Larson who also worked there and retired. In the meantime, Bob Elliot and Krause had left Bonner and went to Hurst,Texas starting EK Logitrol. Think of this period of time as slope and gliders just getting underway: Reed has a small business focused around the JART; Guys you fly with, drink a beer with and generally consider friends come over to your shop and talk planes; You show them your new design and what new toys are in your mind; One by one, they too want to have as much fun so they start by maybe cutting wings and than add a kit. But you see them as friends until one day you realize this hobby has become a serious business and guess what? They are competitors! Modelers have always helped other modelers out. We share knowledge on how to do things. Look at the number of what we can refer to as "garage operations". Some flyer like Carl or Brian has a great flying bird. They work somewhere else for a living but guys come up to them at the slope and are so impressed they want to build one. Shortly, the thoughts pop up about doing this full time. Leading Edge gliders is a good example. Jack now does this for a living trying to carve a niche out in the EPP arena. Today it's established in most areas, plus we now have a foreign inexpensive labor base that so many companies utilize. No American company can compete in the kit business but when it started there wasn't any competition and some people had more perception than others.

JW: Wow, I'm really going to school here, Sr.
So let's talk about ARFs. What do you guys consider an ARF and what are the first examples you can remember?

Sr: (Deep breath here).......The three letters supposedly stand for "Almost ready to Fly". This is somewhat different than "Ready to Fly" because what's "almost?" Reminds me of some past exposure within some contracts at North American when the Air Force asked for "Best Effort." The first venture into this world was done (in a garage operation) by Lanier. He did this back in the 60's. The planes were foam cores with "Aero sheet" plastic covering, a vacuum formed plastic fuselage over a ply substructure and had plastic formed wing tips etc. We used these for test planes as they were expendable and referred to them as "rubber ducks." First one was a "Comet" and he soon had a stable of them that included the "Bronco, Sabre, Jupiter and several others." They really didn't fly too bad but a rather ugly situation developed when our National team flew them in the International Championships in an effort to promote the product. As I recall, the boys across the water kicked our butts and touched off some strong reactions at home to this effort. As mentioned, Ugi Oki in Japan (old friend of Bob Dunhams) produced two ARF's called the Shell Fly A & B (high wing-low wing) with a .25 engine. These were the second "Arfs" I remember seeing and flying. If you dialed in on my previous comments about the modeling world, some enterprising people had started to build planes for sale to guys who couldn't nail two 2 x 4's together or for people who didn't have the time or inclination. Lanier seized the moment and filled a need. The reaction was totally predictable. DuBro came with two high quality ARF's including a sea plane, MidWest developed some all foam planes and kit builders turned an eye towards "adding" prefabricated parts to their kits to make building easier. So the die was cast and our world was changing both by the "old guys" leaving and our basic way of life influencing our recreational time. There is no question that to days ARF's are excellent aircraft and built to a level far exceeding 95% of most peoples ability. These "ARF's" still require "assembly" and so it comes back to what is an ARF and more so what's "almost." A humorous point here. I built an "okay" GeeBee replica of Doolittle's plane and had it at the field. Two guys came up and said, "What a great plane!" "Who's ARF is it?" I guess that's when I knew I had arrived as a builder.

Jr: An ARF to me is probably the classic definition: "Almost Ready to Fly" plane. I think of them as finished kits, pre-fabed from wood, foam or other materials, covered in light ABS plastic or econokote type materials, and all the components glued together, and rather looks like a plastic ARF plane. I know that in this day and age, their are some really nice looking ARF kits, that are crafted well, look fairly scale (if your looking for a scale plane) and really are a great value. As far as ARF's for the slope, I think the durability is really a key factor. Most ARF's that I have seen are very lightly constructed, and I think that some serious modification would be required - and you know how much I enjoy a good modification :). Of course the ARF airfoils are usually not suited at all for sloping.

In the early days, all the ARF's I remember were for gas powered models. My dad would use planes like a Lanier Bronco as test beds for his radios! They were all plastic, and highly susceptible to cracking, vibration problems and getting fuel everywhere. I remember late one 60's summer evening, my dad was testing a Orbit radio that was returned by a customer, and we went out test flying. Yes, my dad and I actually tested out the radios! (I got tons of flying hours this way as a kid!). Anyway, my dad makes a screaming pass over the dirty and dusty power field, just as he starts toward the beginning of the runway, we hear v v v v v v v v - WHAP! a huge dust cloud erupts, and there is total silence...... I can see the disgust on my dads face, as we walk over to the wreckage. Man, everything was totaled - nothing left of that ARF, but the tail section! My dad grabs the plane by the dangling control rods, drags it through the dirt, opens the trunk on his huge Impala, and whirls the remains in the trunk. Thump, slams the trunk, and says: Get in the car son! We are going home.... Man that was a cool wreck! We looked at the stab, and realized that the stab on this ARF was only held together by a small spruce joiner, and it snapped under the flight loads, and fluttered, causing massive down elevator and the inevitable impressive crash..

We ended up with some crazy ARF contraptions, and often times ended up refinishing them to look more like a real plane.

I think that the really first Ready to Fly glider was the Hobie Hawk. You could get them in four colors (if I remember correctly), red, yellow, orange and white. They came originally with a Kraft brick, and then the RS systems dual servo setup - (two servos in one case). You could pull it out of the custom foam case, complete with zippered cover, and toss it off the slope! Wow, how cool was that! I am pleased to say that I still have one of those - and yes even with the zippered case! Because my dad worked for RS Systems, my dad and I would go to the Hobie factory, and check out all the cool molds, and assembly going on. I remember the 1000' rolls of monokote that they used to cover the Hawks with! I think we even grabbed some for other projects we were working on. We would sometimes go flying with Hobie, and he had some of the really early Fermin style planes!

Sr: Addendum to the above. (Something you didn't ask for but please humor me)
This subject, from the older side of the hobby, is an extremely difficult area that everyone will have an opinion about. To someone such as myself, I took great pride in all aspects of the hobby and it would not be justifiable to state that my outlook is the right one. But I will share this thought with you and then cease.

I see competitions held such as Top Gun where someone builds a plane (ready to fly?) and uses many other companies to get to the final configuration. Money is no object and someone else flies it (please note Dave Platt still does it all from scratch!) and they do this with a computer radio that compensates for pilot skills in many ways. They have a series of judges that that attempt to "score" the flights with someone winning by two tenths or so of a point! Kinda like watching a football game where the ref spots the ball, measures for a first down only to see it short or long by an inch after three people have tossed it around. End result is someone is acknowledged to be "the best." If you correlate this back to when a fighter pilot flew his plane against another pilot, the controls were much the same in function and movement, every specific plane was made to the same drawings and it was the best man that usually survived by his skill not by having more money or at the end someone judge on an arbitrary basis. I'm not recommending we have a "shoot out" but what are we really looking to accomplish? The guy that designs the turbine that made the jet "real" to me is a winner. The craftsman that drew plans and built the plane is a winner. The flyer demonstrates his ability to fly under all sorts of conditions so I feel we should be enjoying just seeing these wonderful models just perform. I have nothing but admiration, respect and a personal satisfaction for modelers such as yourself and my son who have discovered the pure pleasure of creating, building and flying something that came from within you. If you do this, it doesn't mean that one can't enjoy someone else's efforts (Arf's) as well but if you are always a sheep instead of a shepard, you have missed out on one of the most significant aspects of this hobby.

Maybe, just maybe Reed, the lucky guys are the ones that understand this and go up to a slope or field, look out at a blue sky with big white clouds and green fields and with the wind in their face, fly and say "thanks for a great day", not worry about a trophy" and fly something created within them and brought to "flying life" with their sweat and skill.

JW: Couldn't have said it better if I'd tried, Sr. Every time I get to fly one of my own planes on a beautiful day I walk away saying, "Wow, that was so great." Really! Every time.

You've both mentioned Hobie and it piques my curiosity. Growing up in Costa Mesa in the late 60's and 70's one couldn't avoid the name Hobie, especially with the Hobie Cat. It took me years to connect Hobie Cats with Hobie Hawks and even longer to realize there was an actual guy named "Hobie." Can you both talk a little about flying with him and how the Hobie Hawk came to be so popular?

Jr: Well, I remember flying at the beach with Hobie, watching him fly some extreme slopers. I was in awe of the performance. His planes were fast, and durable, again similiar construction to the Fermin style slopers of this era.

I spent countless hours practicing with my Hobie Hawks, trying to be the best at flying them on the slope, and thermal. The biggest problem, was getting them to slow down for landing. I specially modified a hawk with spoilers, and it did help, but you still ended up with the "Hawk Walk", which is where the wing comes off step, and starts to oscillate in a rolling motion, from side to side. I often remember getting it to land ok, just to have it catch a wing tip, and roll onto it's back, and end up upside down! The Hawks were a fun plane to fly, but could be very frustrating as well. I had three models that I flew, the standard length wing, a short wing "racing" version (what was I thinking?) and a 10' span version. There were some of the 10' span versions custom made, but I don't think that they made it into the production market. It was a fun time at the slope.

Sr: Man, you are pushing my memory bank! This subject could take a more than just a "few words". Everyone knows about Hobie but not many will remember that he sold his company (it started in his garage) to Coast Catamaran. Hobie was a true "free spirit" and saw us flying off a hill down near Dana Point. He got hooked and decided to "tool up" a glider using composite techniques. He had $260K in tooling that included three different types of molding processes. I was heavily involved with RS Systems at the time and we had some of the old Micro Avionics and Orbit personnel such as Bob Novak and Don Mathes on board. A specific 3 channel radio, that was made for the Hawk, came into being. Thus, a true ready to fly came into existence. Hobie intended to make a run for the worlds speed record with the Hawk. It featured two different hardwoods (teak and mahogany) with a different airfoil and dihedral. He was planning on doing this in Norway as I recall but I don't think I will ever forget the maiden flight! He pitched off and in short order climbed to just under some big cumulus clouds and than made a run. You could hear it coming from a half a mile away! When he pulled up, it just kept going until he hit the big white clouds. We use to fly down at Salt Creek in Laguna and Hobie had a house on the beach near the hill therefore guess where he spent a lot of time. The Hobie "crowd" really picked up on the plane and would sail their 'Cats and then fly their Hawks. They lived for mid-airs and had some great times. Big contest was to set beer cans on the edge of the slope and see who could pick the most off on a low pass. Hobie even sold these in Miami and I recall we did a high-start down at the boat show being held in the Convention Center. You haven't lived until you high-start through the palm trees and work the side of the Convention Center for "lift". The plane sold all over the world and if you knew how to "set it up", you had an "interesting" machine. If you didn't configured right, the landings were a sight to behold! Carl and one of his buddies at the time really cut their teeth on this plane and their flying moved up several notches as it wasn't a plane for everyone! It was also one very tough bird!! It would cut right through a conventional built up plane and was not always welcomed at a flying field. Spare parts were readily available which made it easy to keep flying. Coast Catamaran felt this was outside their business envelop or core business and also had a bit of difficulty in working with Hobie as he was never cut out to be a corporate exc. Coast Cat made the decision to exit this facet of business and stay with the basic items. Hobie had a son we dubbed "Little Hobie" and the kid not only had Dad's talent for sailing but did real well with his flying. Flying with Hobie was what the hobby should be about--alot of fun, laughs and great companionship and not on trophies. It was a time that will always be fondly remembered. The tooling was sold to MidWest Products and than sold again and again. I understand that it is now once more being configured overseas and will possibly re-surface in a little different configuration. Good-bad or whatever, it truly was a legend as was its creator.

JW: Ok, back to your father and son building careers. Was there ever a point where you two weren't building together?

Jr: During the mid to late 70's I was building mostly on my own. I started to experiment with slope gliders more, and my own designs. My dad was not living with me or my mom at this point, and he was flying mostly power then. I started practicing slope at the local hill, almost every day until dark. I was flying my Hobie Hawk, Airtronics sailplanes, a Gryphon flying wing and a windfree. I remember practicing hundreds of hand catches and landings, trying to get alot better at precision flying. I was thinking about the planes I was building, and it was a mix of power planes and slope gliders. I actually designed a pointy nose, sleek aerobatic slope glider. Similiar wing planform to the JART. Long even taper wings, and the tail was set at the same level as the wing. It was all balsa construction, very light and structurally weak. It had a fully symmetrical airfoil as well. I thought it looked awesome! What I didn't realize at the time, was that the wing loading was so low, that it wouldn't penetrate in any kind of wind above 12mph! So, it never did live up to it's potential, but hey it was mine!

In 1984, I moved to Riverside, and joined a club called the La Sierra Slope Soarers (LSSS). There I met a dear friend named Mike Reed, and together we started to fly slope and some gas power planes. We designed the Falcon flying, LS-1 slope trainer, and a couple of other cool planes. He was an interesting character, opinionated, and would always say what was on his mind. He used to fly a lot of thermal, slope and power. He had a great sense of humor, but rarely showed it to anyone other than his friends. He designed a cool low wing slope glider called the Slopar, and he really was a master technician. We spent many hours talking about planes, designs for new gliders, and trying new things. He moved to Oregon before we split into the Inland Slope Rebels. I will miss him, as he passed away in August 2006.

Shortly therafter, I met Brian Laird at a 1987 (as I recall) LSSS club meeting. He brought some of his Slope Scale planes (a Spitfire and an Aircobra), and I thought they were weird looking, but cool. I remember thinking how heavy they were, at 35oz or so! At the slope, I saw them fly, and knew I had to fly one. Brian was tooling up for a new B-17 Flying Fortress, and so I cut a deal to get a built Spitfire, in trade for drawing the B-17 CAD plans for him. I was thrilled, and we started flying together after that – that's when the real fun started! When I was in the LSSS club, we had lots of combat, fun-fly style contests, that really suited a hill with a rolling face, and less lift. In the LSSS, it became apparent that there was a split in the views amongst members of the club, and there seemed to be hassles brewing between these groups. So in 1996, Brian Laird, Richard Teller, Robert Cavazos, Frank Cavazos, Dan Sampson, Mike Wofford formed the now famous Inland Slope Rebels. Originally Brian and I wanted to call it the Inland Slope Racers, but changed our minds. Our main goal was to create a club of do-ers, not whiners, and we wanted guys who loved to build and fly. Brian and I setup an ISR road trip to Los Banes in 1996 and we took 6 guys and over 60 planes! We then started our first major club design project, the 60" Super Tucano, and after completing them, six ISR members took similarly painted Tucanos back to the Los Banos Fun-fly in 1997. It was a kick showing up with the ISR show team!

My dad was still flying power planes, so we did not fly together very much during this period.

JW: Obviously, the son has to move out at some point. What was that like for you, Sr.?

Sr: At first this seems like almost like a fairly simple question with a relatively "non emotional" answer. I was 25 when Carl showed up so he had been flying with me for most of my "early adult" years. What this does, is cause "the Dad" to think about how and where the time went! Every son "discovers" the need to find his path in life and with it usually comes with such things as a car, girls and a related need for the money to support the activities (I would use the word "habit" but it now has some rather adverse connotations). We continued to build and fly during this period and a number of my friends also had sons that were about the same age as Carl. As examples, at RS Systems, Ron Neal had his son Mitch involved. and during North American, Wally Obenberger had Richard building. Carl acquired a 69 Firebird when he was 15 and in short order learned how to "bend lifters" when he wasn't off to go flying with friends. They really took advantage of the summer months to go flying as they were out of school and had "wheels". It's important to flag that each of us had our own "project" while the common ground was the shop (Carl always kept it organized and clean so I could find things) and flying together at a dry lake or the flying field. In keeping with the "normal progression," Carl had started his "working for a living" routine about 1979 or 1980 and then got married a few years later. His priorities like all of us, required a "must adapt" to a new environment of wife, home and paying bills. It was probably at this point that my focus on the hobby diminished but didn't disappear. So when Carl entered into adulthood, I was re-focusing on my life and career. Both of us continued to build and fly but time, occupations and distance were limiters as one would expect. The biggest impact to not flying, building or seeing each other came when I moved to Texas. My involvement in the hobby took a significant increase upwards over multiple areas while there. Meanwhile, Carl and Brian Laird started moving on the PSS scene by starting the Inlandslope Rebels. I returned from Texas after 3yrs and once more we now have both the opportunity and enjoyment of sharing some special times as witnessed by the B-29--X-1 effort.

JW: So what was Texas like, Sr.?

Sr: I went to Texas in 1997 and into a very different environment. I had purchased a home that was over 5000 sq ft with a 4 car garage having 14ft ceilings. This was located in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and needless to say subject to significant weather changes. Obviously, one of the first priorities was to locate the hobby shops. It turned out that one of the best I have ever been into was located in Hurst which was about 15 min from the house. The local flying club was the Greater Southwest group and their field was about 12-15 minutes away. Needless to say, I was an outsider and Texans are unique in that they sit back and observe until they make up there mind whether or not they really want to get to know you. Being from California made this even more interesting. For whatever reason, a number of them slowly became friends and once you have them as a friend, you have a lifetime friend. I will tell you that I created a shop that was the envy of everyone and one that I wish I had today! I can still remember them telling me that I couldn't build in the garage during the summer because of the heat. Bear in mind that I had finished walls and ceilings with full lighting, carpeted floor and both air conditioning and heating installed. The first few times anyone saw that shop and garage, they cracked up laughing particularly over the carpet. It didn't take long before I would be in the shop with unreal temperatures going on and hear a pounding on the garage doors associated with a "let me in". It became the gathering center of a small group with some wild projects. The ceilings held 1/4 scale and some up to 42% such as my multi cylindered Raven. I flew at least 4-5 times a week outdoors during this time. Concurrent with this was the Bedford Boys ranch group that flew indoor rubber and rc. So every Thursday I flew rubber power from 9 to 11 and indoor rc from 11 to 3. Another completely different group and sandwiched in-between these two was the white wing glider group that I flew with once a week in Richland Hills. Phenomenal thermal flying! I use to think that California was the hot bed of flying. The activity in the Dallas/Ft Worth area makes California pale in comparison. We flew everything from scale birds to old timers outdoors and everything from rubber to CO2 and rc indoors. We even flew at night in an indoor scoccer arena. I probably had between 75 and 100 aircraft covering all the various aspects and some are still in Texas. It had gotten to the point where work was an inconvenience. Every Friday nite was dinner out at a local resturant with the wives and discussing what and where we would fly on the weekend. Some great stories and great friends that I still have contact with. They are wonderful people and I have the utmost respect for their abilities and friendships.

JW: Now I have to ask about the B-29/X-1 project. I feel privileged to have been at the 2003 PSS Festival and took my own video of the drop - what a stunning moment at the slope! Who's idea was it?

Jr: I was looking for a large scale PSS plane, that could really make an impact on the slope scene. I thought about a large U-2, B-2, XB-70 and many others. I looked at the features of the B-29, figured I could build it scale, and have a cool bomb drop. I drew up a 100" fuse length approx 144" span), and then measured my van, and found that I couldn't fit it in! So I scaled down to a 107" span, 74" long fuse version. The diameter of the fuse would be about 7", so I could manage it if I cut if out of blue foam. As I progressed, Brian, my dad and I discussed creating an option for a X-1 drop, and I was excited about it. So I engineered a main underbelly box system, where you could slide out the entire bottom "bomb bay" section, and slide in a box setup with servo release for the X-1. It would be completely interchangeable. My dad said he would build and fly the X-1, so I drew up the X-1, scaling up the wings and tail, so it would fly, then did a master mechanical layout of the whole assembly, so I could make sure that the X-1 would fit, and be carried under the B-29. The balance points would have to coincide, and a host of other problems would need to be resolved. As I got into the B-29 build, my dad offered to detail design the wings, including the split flaps, four engine nacelles and all the other details. I said "you bet!" and so we took it on together. It was a good thing too, as the build took quite a bit of time, and we were hustling to get it done by Soar Utah 2002. The bomb bay version was completed by the event, and we debuted it there. It dropped bomb, and landed beautifully on it's fully retractable landing skids as well! It was not until the 2003 PSS Festival that we finished up the killer B-29 / X-1 combo. Jack Cooper of LEG aircraft cut the X-1 EPP parts and my dad built the rest. As you can see in your video it worked out perfectly, and we were very impressed by the performance of the B--29 mothership. It flies very stable, even with engine nacelles and the X-1 attached. I felt comfortable enough to perform some rolls and loops as well. It really came out nice.

I am very proud to have built this project with my dad, and have such great success with it. It was definitely a project of a lifetime.

Sr: All you have to do to answer this question is ask, "if it's scale and you throw it off a hill, than it had to be the son's idea." Thinking back to that time, I remember getting a phone call one evening and Carl saying something about building a really cool B-29 for Soar Utah. I think what had happened was that he had asked everyone else and being of sound mind, they said "no thanks." So I guess I "won" by default.

Seriously, this was a fun project and we split the effort into two segments. Carl took the fuselage and tail group while I focused on the wing and nacelles. The wing required significant planning as I ran an estimated loads analysis relative to weight and related stress that revealed a need for a strong spar/load bearing wing attachment. In that Carl was designing two "boxes"-one for carrying ordinance and the other to house the X-1, the main wing rod had to pass through these boxes and could not be angled. The dihedral therefore had to be built into the wings or the boxes could not be change out. The rod was quite long and a solid piece of 6061 T6 aluminum was utilized. Each wing panel had to have the identical angle in all axis in order to assure wings located identically both fore and aft as well as in dihedral. Coupled to this was the need for the full span main spars and this was accomplished by "boxing" in the upper and lower pieces thus allowing the wire runs from the actuators to be inside the box. I can recall calling Carl and telling him to move the locating tubes in the fuselage about a 1/32 of an inch forward. I will honestly say that when the magic moment came and the mating of the wings to the fuse happened, they fit like a glove! It was an extremely satisfying moment and I guess some would say, "even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn." Or we just were on the same page and I prefer to believe the latter.

Soar Utah was coming up rapidly and we had finished enough to test it. So up to Cajon we went and again, a great moment. Two of us threw it off the hill with Carl on the box. It went out about 6 ft settling about a foot down and then just climbed out. Both of us flew it and it was an extremely smooth flyer without a "bad bone in its body". Detail work still needed to be done so I ground away on the nacelles and Carl started markings etc. We made Utah but hadn't time to do the X-1 so the ordinance box was in place. The word flew around rapidly that "something big" was there so when we assembled it on Sat. it indeed was an object of discussion. Naturally, everyone wanted to see it go and finally we got the wind we needed. The plane now had the nacelles and the payload was loaded so two more "first" were about to happen. The crowd was really into it and the plane didn't disappoint them. Carl did a masterful job of flying it and put it thru rolls, loops and low passes. After the landing we both just walked to it enjoying the moment. Needless to say it is that kind of moment that will remain with me always. The X-1 was built in time to commemorate the 100 yrs of flight at the annual PSS festival. Jack of Leading Edge gliders cut the foam for it and it was my first experience with an EPP plane. I "built it (?)" but compared to balsa it's like working with bubble gum and I still can't get used to burying equipment. I really wanted to put a "Jet-X" engine in the rear and light it off but this wasn't going to get accepted so it remained a pure glider. The test flights went ok and so the night before the festival, Carl and I changed out the boxes, set the location for the CG up and the next day we flew them as originally planned. You have seen the video so "nuff is said"! I truly think that Carl's vision of a large aircraft has had a significant impact on So. Cal slopes. The following year saw the B-52, FW190 and Me 108 show up and larger aircraft are no longer just a rarity. For me, it was also a very special time and one that makes for a great father /son memory.

JW: Now we come to this crazy band of slope maniacs called the Inland Slope Rebels. You've watched this develop from the beginning, what are your impressions of the club's development? And have you been to all of the PSS Festivals?

Sr: You realize that my vision of this group is probably greatly different than those who are in the group. This is primarily because people join a club for different reasons and I have seen clubs and groups for quite a while with each club having different goals. Many people join an RC group for every thing from companionship to having a place to fly. I think that Brian and Carl primarily started this to pursue a more dynamic side of glider flying. This got coupled to the utilization of higher technology materials such as the composites and resulted in the unlimited boundaries now being seen in slope flying. From my viewpoint, it was great to see another generation of modelers (not assemblers) designing and creating aircraft from multiple materials. Additionally, you have no "hangar queens" in this group. If you don't build and fly, you really shouldn't be in the club. Every flying group is made up from personnel representing many different aspects of occupations. What sets the Inland Slope Rebels apart is their creativity and innovation and "not possible" is not in their dictionary. The mindset is not preset nor is it locked into any specific standard and being mediocre is not acceptable to them as an individual. They constantly want to improve and build. This carries over to their various occupations and visa-versa. I love to see people think and create! The club meetings are extremely informal and yet somehow club business gets done in spite of all the humor and conversation flying about. Carl and Brian are the ringleaders and when this band of merry men started, I believe talent attracted talent and they definitely set "the standards". Once members saw the various techniques and approaches, they too were off and running. It's a great tribute to Carl and several others that they always take time to guide, help and assist others looking to build better which in turn raises the standards of excellence. I have tried to assist in recognizing individuals that achieve high levels in craftsmanship by establishing the "Craftsmanship" award. This is given annually at the PSS festival and hopefully sets something tangible for one to achieve. Personally, I feel that my role in the club is that of supporting where and when I can. Over the years I have had an opportunity to interface with most of them and can honestly say that they represent technology,creativity, innovation and have developed great friendships while being competitive and still have fun flying! This year marks the 10th anniversary of the club and as usual, I will look forward to a great time. They are a great group of people to know.

Jr: Well, The club is a group of fun and interesting people. We are very diverse in our interests, yet somehow everbody seems to get something out of it that they want. I really enjoy the friends, teaching others what I know, and learning from some very talented people. I really have come to enjoy the building, and this club really seems to support that. We try and make fun club projects, like Tucanos, ME-109s and now the killer F-86's. This is really a fun time. I feel that the club members really do a tremendous amount of activities for such a small club, but have a really big heart when it comes to supporting each other and the club. This small group can generate some heated viewpoints and frustration, but so far they have been very forgiving. I sure appreciate that, when things get tough! The structure is informal, but we have some business activites that we get done, and supporting two major events each year - The AMA International Modeling Show booth, and the Spring PSS Festival really require a lot of work from our club. Thankfully we have so many great guys that dig and get er done...

Brian and I went to the 1996 and 1997 Los Banos fun fly event, where is was scale, vintage and PSS. We were really tolerated, but our style of flying was not encouraged. So after some discussion, Brian and I decided we could hold a better PSS only contest and really cater to the slope guys. We felt that there really wasn't a fun fly forum for this, and so we would give it a shot. We felt as though we could really show some great creative PSS projects to the community, and were excited to provide an event for it. As our funds from raffles and other fund raiser events started to grow, then we expanded our event a little more. It has been a fun ride from the first one until our tenth!

JW: Ok, since we're on the JARTWORLD website, I should ask what each of you think of the JART, good, bad or indifferent?

Sr: The question of what do I think of the JART is not important to anyone but you, Reed, because it's your baby and if it pleases you than thats all that counts! This was a design from you and carries your thinking, artistry and craftsmanship to a level that should provide you with a deep satisfaction of accomplishment. Concurrently, Carl's SlOPESTREAM should be in the same envelope for him. Both these planes were designed and built to be aesthetically pleasing to the eye while excelling at going faster than others. I would guess the airfoil on the JART to be either a 6062 or 6063. I believe Carl is runing a highly modified RG. Both aircraft fly beautifully with very little to distinguish between them as they incorporate a "sleekness" and obviously, are very fast. What's important is the wing loading on aircraft of this type and design and we'll leave that subject as it gets pretty involved. I mentioned earlier about the "common ground" you were on when just the two were flying. It's funny you should mention that you didn't swap "tips" and insight as I think I made a comment about both of you just being "into" the time of the moment which is in my mind what this hobby is really all about. So in summary, both are very impressive aircraft that are representative of the individual who designed them and appear to have met the standards and the goals set. It would be fun to brainstorm with you, the design phase of the JART. Additionally, what a fantastic job you have done with the web site and sharing of information on the aircraft! Nothing greater than seeing a devoted group to a plane-shades of Mustang pilots or Spit and ME 109 guys!

Jr: I love the idea of the JART. I think the best part of the whole JART phenomena is that it came out exactly as the designer wanted it to be. To me, that is the most important thing, bringing the dream to a reality for the designer. That is what makes it so special to see materialize. I really like how axial the JART is, and how it grooves.... really smooth and powerful. I think that I would like to try a JART with a fully symmetrical airfoil. That would be a kick.

I surely enjoyed and appreciated flying with you and your JART on the Friday before the 2006 PSS festival. It was a special and exciting time. I would like to see some more designs from you, my friend.

JW: Well, now that we've looked at all these things you've done, I wonder now what's on the horizon for you two?

Sr: I have a 90" electric powered DeHavilland Comet just about done that should be a real mover much like its 1934 full scale brother. Recently while researching some of the German aircraft that were conceived, I came across an original Focke Wulf drawing that was quite intriguing. The aircraft was never built but has great moments and appears to be capable of flying exceptionally well. The beauty of doing something like this is that it has never been built in any capacity so it just might be like rolling time back and flying a pure prototype machine. The plans reflect a wingspan of around 120" so it should be able to adequately fill my SUV.

Jr: I am sure that my dad will want some help on his german Focke Wulf slope project, and I think that would be fun to engineer. I usually layout all planes in CAD, and I find it very useful for doing calculations on areas, moments, loadings, CG, etc. This plane has some unique challenges, and I think my dad needs a lot of help ;) He has some interesting ideas on the project, and I think it would look very cool in the air.

Sr: I actually had planned on getting this done by the festival but got sidetracked with the club F-86 project. Problem is that the planes keep stacking up and the space to store them goes down! Bottom line is that I need a 6 car garage with a shop.

Jr: In the short term, I am trying to get the club project F-86 completed by the festival, and maybe something else as too. The F-86 project was fun to help create the finished plug, and it was fun to work as a team and see it materialize into a very nice scale fiberglass sloper. It is exciting to see many others building some too.

I would like to see some team building contests done, where a group of guys (near and far) have a sailplane build (and fly) off! I think it would be a kick to get teams together and have a real fun build-off event. I think we even talked about incorporating something like this into future PSS Festivals. Maybe even a speed building contest during the Festival, to see which team can get their kit into the air the fastest!

I have another Slopestream project that I need to get going on, as I owe it to Tim Neja, and it should be a rocket! The fuse alone is 5 layers of 10oz cloth, and it looks awesome! It is always fun to try and dream up another cool paint scheme. There are so many great ideas that I would like to try, some scale, and some for speed and aerobatics as well.

I would love to see the ISR club get the landing area we need at the Cajon site – then we would really be able to build some bigger and more impressive slope planes. It would be very nice to be able to land our planes without tearing them up so often. This will really transform Cajon Summit into an awesome place to fly.

SR: Overall, it's kind of in God's hands as I'm now 72 and he may have different plans for me than I have. Assuming I get to stick around for awhile and have continual good health, I probably will continue to visit some of the world's major air museums, enjoy the building and flying times that are ongoing and have great times with my wife and family members. Actually, if I had a little more motivation, I probably would try to locate about 10 acres of land with a hill, lake etc and build my "log" cabin and live the dream! Don't know if this answers the question but hopefully the "run" has a ways to go and I'm still loving the ride! Having said that, I wish all the people that have a similar passion as mine, "Good Lift" and "Smooth Landings."

JW: For me, this discussion could go on and on, but I guess this is as good a time wrap up as any. Maybe at some point we could do a "Part II"? I have so many more questions, but I tried to keep this in somewhat chronological order. My hope is that this interview inspires fathers and sons (and daughters!) to get away from the video screens and work together on something - anything!

Sr: Your interview caused me to look back and recall many memories with many people so I thank you for that. I believe that if a person can look at a son or daughter and would like them as a friend, then they have probably succeeded as a parent. Obviously I like what I see in Carl. He is a great human being. Seeing he and you flying the SlopeStream and the JART with no one around was interesting to me because one person (the dad) could sense the enjoyment and pride you were sharing at that moment. You have a great love for this sport so I sincerely wish you everything it gave to me and others.